Point shooting advocates often tout various miss rate claims among officers, typically showcasing New York Police Department studies as “proof” that training to learn any sort of two hand, eye level shooting technique is ineffective.
Point shooting techniques were understood and taught long before any two hand, eye level shooting technique was commonly taught. In fact, most point shooting advocates recommend trainers and techniques from decades ago as the better way.
Given that point shooting has been used as a primary approach in the past, what sort of success rates did point shooting-trained personnel enjoy? Would a point shooting-trained force fare any better than the NYPD?
One study offered is data published by Fairbairn and Sykes as described in their book Shooting To Live With The One Hand Gun on the results of encounters by their point shooting trained officers:
Police Killed: 42
Criminals Killed: 260
(Ratio 1:6.19)
Police Wounded: 100
Criminals Wounded: 103
(Ratio 1:1.03)
Point shooting advocate John Veit claims that this “does indicate that their method was both effective and practical.”
Of course, this doesn’t describe their hit/miss ratio, just the final results. In fact, just like Fairbairn and Sykes, this is exactly how the NYPD officially compiles results.
NYPD Annual Firearms Discharge Report 2011
On Page 24 (PDF 42)
OBJECTIVE COMPLETION RATE
Similarly, the Department does not calculate average hit percentages. Instead, the objective completion rate per incident is employed as it is both more accurate and more instructive.
Despite various miss rates being put out by third parties, neither the NYPD nor Fairbairn and Sykes officially kept this sort of tally. For an apples-to-apples comparison, what sort of final results do organizations like the NYPD have? The NYPD also compiles this same data on their officers in the New York City Police Department Annual Firearms Discharge Report.
NYPD Annual Firearms Discharge Report 2011
Starting on Page 63 (PDF p. 81)
1971-2011
Police Killed: 119
Criminals Killed: 1049
(Ratio 1:8.815, 42.4% improvement over Fairbairn and Sykes)
Police Injured: 661
Criminals Injured: 2399
(Ratio 1:3.629, 252% improvement over Fairbairn and Sykes)
How did New York police officers shoot their handguns?
NYPD Annual Firearms Discharge Report 2011
Page 24 (PDF 42)
SHOOTING TECHNIQUE
Utilizing a two-handed grip, standing, and lining up a target using the firearm’s sights is the preferred method of discharging a firearm, but it is not always practical during an adversarial conflict. Of officers reporting their shooting techniques, 71 percent gripped the firearm with two hands. Sixty percent of officers who reported their stance state that they were standing, while 31 percent were moving or struggling. Finally, thirty-four officers reported whether or not they had used their sights, with 44 percent reporting in the affirmative.
Nearly three out of four NYPD officers involved in shootings used a two hand grip/stance and almost half used their sights.
If NYPD studies and Fairbairn and Sykes are to be believed (point shooting advocates think they are) then the NYPD, despite their claimed terrible miss rate, have results superior to a point shooting trained force.
Firearm User Network 
Nov 10, 2012 @ 13:04:28
Bingo, John B.
Cop vs. criminal hit rates are meaningless in a discussion about one shooting style vs. another, for the simple reason that no one is bringing up the shooting style of the criminals. If all cops shot one way, and we knew that all criminals shot the other way, and we knew that both received the same level of training, ONLY THEN would you have a valid comparison of cops vs. criminals. Otherwise there is NO logical basis for valid comparison!
The only relevant comparison is cops trained one way vs. cops trained another way, and even then, each group would have to have the same level of training (hours & round count) to be honestly comparable to each other via target scores.
IMO, level of training in a given style is probably more important than the style, until the level of individual proficiency reaches the maximum potential for that style. Only then will the style differences become apparent. And the simple fact is that cops and military are NOT trained to such a level. So, they do not present much of a valid example, since they cannot perform to the best potential of their style, rather, only to the level of whatever less-than-optimum training/practice AMOUNTS they were given.
On the other hand….serious competitors DO train themselves to such high levels, and can demonstrate max style performance potential on demand, in repeatable courses of fire that HAVE been caught on video. World, regional, and state champions do so regularly. None use pure point shooting when it counts, though some are amazingly good at it (see link below). And probably most if not all use the Cooper-developed blend of trained-reflex-point-and-visual-check variety. Which ought to end the discussion once and for all.
But here’s something for John V.:
Grand Master Taran Butler cleaning a plate rack from the holster in sub-2 seconds, from the hip. Now think about how long it took to learn to do that, vs. how long it would take to learn to do it using the sights. If your training time and ammo are nearly unlimited? Well, your choice…but you won’t find police departments training their cops to shoot like that. Not in the budget.
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Nov 10, 2012 @ 19:33:36
Got some URL’s for the NYPD and LAPD studies/reports??
Would like to go over them and and do some other checking before making a reply.
……….
Great shooting by the grand naster. I certainly am not one, nor even a competitive shooter.
Just below is a link to a video of me shooting aerials with a pistol. Practiced for about an hour a day for a week to get where I could regularly hit several in a row, so it is not difficult.
I was standing about 11+ feet from the back drop sheet of the shooting bay.
To keep the BB’s in the shooting bay, I tried not to shoot until a can was around 8 feet or less off the ground.
From 7 off the ground, to 4 feet off the ground, seemed to be best window for shooting.The downside is that it requires extra quick aiming/pointing and shooting.
As to speed, I shoot as fast as I can grab a can, toss it, and aim/point and shoot.
DO NOT shoot at aerials with a real firearm. Airsoft is a good means to improve your ability to point shoot fast and accurately at small fast moving targets within CQB distance.
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Nov 10, 2012 @ 20:58:35
The NYPD url works, but not the one for the LAPD
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Nov 10, 2012 @ 21:08:54
>> The NYPD url works, but not the one for the LAPD
These links work fine:
Click to access 2010YearEndReport.pdf
Click to access 6-27-12_UOF-Rprt1stQ-2012.pdf
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Nov 10, 2012 @ 21:17:19
thanks John
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Nov 10, 2012 @ 22:00:48
My first impression re the LAPD stats was how many of those dogs included in the hit rate were carrying and/or shooting at the cops?
Will check the NYPD info and past years info to see if that is focused on?
As to 2 handed shooting, the NYPDs SOP 9 report on 6+ thousand CQB cases, found that almost without exception Officers fired with the strong hand.
Could be that combat is not what it used to be, or for good or bad someone is trying to muddy the water???
It could be like quals that have a score of 130 to 150, so an Officer’s score of say 95 looks a lot better than in reality it is.
Could be I’m way of base. Won’t be the first time.
Best to let the sunshine in and see what there is to see.
Thanks for the links. More to follow.
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Nov 11, 2012 @ 09:44:27
>> Could be that combat is not what it used to be, or for good or bad someone is trying to muddy the water?
I’m just posting stats compiled by NYPD, LAPD and Fairbairn-Sykes based on their results and providing links to the actual, published reports for people that care to delve deeper. If you don’t like these numbers or feel they “muddy the water”, please contact the appropriate agency.
My real point is that this issue isn’t perfectly black and white. Stats seem to exist to prove or disprove whatever notion you fancy.
>> It could be like quals that have a score of 130 to 150, so an Officer’s score of say 95 looks a lot better than in reality it is.
True. Most public sector qualifications are designed to be passed at a low skill level, just like an arithmetic test for elementary school kids. Considering a recruit will be expected to pass after a few days of instruction and practice, this is a necessary reality. The problem is, a qual score that passes a new recruit will also pass a soldier or cop with twenty years of service. The only thing that pushes improvement here is personal motivation.
More here:
https://firearmusernetwork.com/the-connection-between-combat-and-range-results/
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Nov 11, 2012 @ 14:57:53
As usual John, another sensible and practical response.
The link above with sub links covers the subject quite well.
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Nov 15, 2012 @ 16:23:41
Taking a pistol to a rifle fight is not a good idea IMHO. Run. Run, Run!!!
Also self defense shootings are CQ situations. So, unless you are a cop or a soldier, claiming self defense beyond 7 yards could land you in jail.
Here’s a link to an article by Larry Seecamp on why his guns come without sights: http://pointshooting.com/1acamp.htm
And, here’s some data from the NYPD’s 2011 Annual Firearms Discharge Report that points up the rarity of gunfights.
Per the executive summary of the report, there were 92 firearms discharge incidents involving members of the New York City Police Department. Only 36 of the incidents were shootings involving adversarial conflict with a subject.
That’s all there were in a city of 8.2 million people, and where there are nearly 35,000 uniformed members who interacted with citizens in approximately 23 million instances in 2011. It’s also shows an impressive record of firearms control.
So your chance of being in a real gunfight is probably right up there with the chance of your being hit by a lightning strike unless you are a bodyguard in Iraq/Afganistan/Syria.
Also about 1/2 or more of the shootings in NY and LA occur from about 6 pm to 6 am when seeing the sights if there would be time to use them and you would be able to focus on them, would be problematic.
For more info and the stats, skip two threads up to the one on the LAPD stats. I’sm going to add another response shortly, which focuses on the NY and LA shooting stats.
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Jan 22, 2014 @ 15:39:00