A synopsis and response to a recent article citing “problems” with competitive shooting. The synopsis is needed because most of the article devolves into typical “competition ain’t two way” pontification that doesn’t address the point the author claims to be making. As usual, no examples of any actual problems caused by competition are offered. The relevant points are below.
I’m all for speed and proficiency with any firearm. Reloads and all Immediate Actions should be done fast and smooth with the end result to get accurate fire down range fast. Competing against other sport shooters does induce stress and is valuable training to build the basic mindset required.
Gunfighting isn’t just about speed, it’s about awareness. He who is most aware of the environment around him the fastest, wins.
The layout of the 3-gun matches and how they are sequenced help competition sport shooters become lighting fast. They sacrifice awareness for speed. We have all seen videos of 3 gun shooters running and gunning with incredible efficiency and speed. What allows them to be so fast and accurate is the fact that it’s a sequenced range. With pre set targets and a set number of rounds to use on each target, they easily transition and move to the next. Little tactical awareness is required as you can train for and memorize the range.
No different than a ski racer training for the Olympics. Your awareness is not being tested, your proficiency and speed are. The one who has the best mental preparation and reaction time that day wins.
A gunfight is a completely different world. The only factors that you can control are that of ammo you currently have and yourself. Everything else in this environment is now as random as rolling a pair of dice in crap shoot. …
Not only in this complex world are you having to find the threat and engage but also identify if it is a shoot or no shoot situation. Add to this the distraction of communicating with your team and finding cover.
I left in the valid points.
>> Bullets travel 2 ways here
True, but bullets are not coming back during tactical, police, or military training. Force-on-Force “bullets” are also not real. However, range exercises and FoF are still useful tools, provided they help improve skills. Having the means to measure “improved” helps. Reducing that to numbers also helps. All competitions are doing is reducing the tested skill/performance to a number. We don’t have to shoot at each other for training to be valuable.
>> …awareness is not being tested in competition/gunfight environment is random
True enough, known-in-advance layouts do not test awareness or quick decision making. Of course, as he points out in the beginning, the training value is in testing fundamentals at speed and under stress. Simulated, competition-induced stress, but stress nonetheless. Much more stress and a much higher level of fundamental skill than is involved in most tactical, military, or police training, especially qualification.
Where the author loses the plot is that competitive events can (and do) offer surprise/random/unknown targets and layouts. Perhaps not the 3 Gun events he is considering, but such competitions with surprise and unknown layouts do exist. And these events can be (and are) held using as-issue equipment.
For example, Service Conditions matches feature surprise courses where the targets and layouts are hidden and unknown in advance. In The Complete Book of Shooting, published by Outdoor Life Books in 1965, Jeff Cooper describes procedures for holding surprise courses at competitions. In both cases, shooters begin with a mission brief and proceed from there.
The “problems” claimed by this author do not exist anywhere beyond people’s imaginations. Skilled competitors with good scores in square range “one way” competitions also tend to perform well in surprise/random courses and don’t display any claimed “bad habits.” Here are interviews with combat vets with competition experience giving their views on this:
https://firearmusernetwork.com/combat-and-competition/
In fact, one place where such random/surprise events are conducted is CAFSAC (Canadian Armed Forces Small Arms Concentration) held at the Connaught Ranges every year. The PPCLI (Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry) fields teams to compete there. Having served with the “Dirty Patricias” I’m curious why Shaun A. was never selected to compete with them. Perhaps if he had he would have experienced these type of events and realize his concerns are being addressed in competitive events.
Full article
http://www.war-doll.com/#!Competition-Shooting-Vs-the-Two-Way-Range/c19u8/574af0280cf21e876ca81a2d
tattooedskier
Jun 01, 2016 @ 09:20:47
Thank you for this finely spelled check response, that reads like a grade 8 book report. That continues to address the issue I bring up with no practical solution.
My experience in gunfighting isn’t on a range. In fact yes I have never competed in a new aged 3 gun arena this is fact. It’s also fact the only “Competiton” ranges I’ve been on had bullets coming 2 ways.
The mere fact you choose one sentence to crumble the argument that training for 3 gun DOES NOT prepare you for a gunfight. Shows your lack of understanding of the combat environment. Sure they have ranges where the layout isn’t known and it doesn’t surpise me a real gunfighter like Jeff Cooper would endorse that. I wonder if he was alive today what he would say about this 3 gun fad in the gunfighter world?
First let’s look at how 3 gun reload their toys. They do fast reloads in the open without any move to cover, even if that move to cover is the prone. This training will get you killed. Studies have shown time and time again your body will react how it was trained under stress. So training with uncovered and insecure magazines off a feather light race gun belt, in a golf shirt with shorts and running shoes. DOES NOT prepare you for battle. It’s a great range day outfit but it’s not how real soldiers fight.
I agree that accuracy and basic handling are critical elements to train with as a soldier or a police officer. If you spent anytime off the army shooting team and in a real combat world you would understand how being a 3 gun guru doesn’t prepare you for the fight.
Warrior mindset is a earned mindset. It’s earned trough physical and mental tests that thin out the weak. You don’t pay an entry fee and get to play here, you earn your place through toughness and respect. You earn the title of whatever combat unit you are going to. Second place takes home caskets here not silver medals.
Since you question why I wasn’t on a competitive team for my Infantry career. The response is: I was too busy after 9/11 learning how to win real gunfights. I didn’t have the time to play soldier because I was one. My question is if you are so good with a gun and gunfighting why haven’t you deployed? Why are you still playing 3 gun shooter? What in your character has allowed you to spend so much time on the Army without experiencing the real 2 way range?
Thank you for driving home the point that the mentality of a athlete and a warrior are entirely different. It’s good to see all the “real” gunfighters agree with me and have 3 gun world chime in with points that can’t be beat, other than the non rehearsed layout to a range part.
I have a rebuttal article coming out, this one with direct feedback from the SF world based on your ignorance of the “real” gunfight. I’ll get you a link as soon as it’s publish and I look forward to your book report on it.
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John M. Buol Jr.
Jun 01, 2016 @ 21:30:11
Please explain how you would organize the means test skills. You don’t like competition (3 Gun especially) so give us particulars on what does work.
>> My experience in gunfighting isn’t on a range.
I find it difficult to believe you never trained, practiced, or qualified on a one-way range and course of fire. If you did, how did you avoid developing any bad habits given the lack of incoming rounds?
Any comparisons should be made between competition and other training environments, not to combat itself.
>> The mere fact you choose one sentence to crumble the argument that training for 3 gun DOES NOT prepare you for a gunfight.
By this logic, I guess this also “crumbles” the argument that qualification, fitness evaluations, and any other form of formal testing DOES NOT prepare you for a gunfight.
I addressed the most relevant points: Lack of incoming and pre-planned stages. The first is an issue with all forms of training (at least where trainees aren’t routinely killed) and the second is a matter a staging a surprise/random course to prevent pre-planned responses. The rest of it (fatique/fitness, equipment used, etc.) can be addressed by participating in an event specifically requiring such things (Service Conditions-type events or something similar.)
It still isn’t “real world” but neither is any other form of training or testing.
Here’s a point-by-point take on this:
https://precisionresponse.wordpress.com/ignorance-and-the-internet-part-ii/
>> I wonder if [Jeff Cooper] was alive today what he would say about this 3 gun fad in the gunfighter world?
Ask him:
https://firearmusernetwork.com/ken-hackathorn-selective-memory/
https://firearmusernetwork.com/jeff-cooper-competition-is-critical/
>> This training will get you killed. Studies have shown time and time again
What studies? Seriously, if “Studies have shown time and time again…” then there would be actual studies. Where the hell are they? I’d really like to read them.
Still waiting for the first specific, actual incident of a competitive shooter succumbing to “problems” due to competition experience. If this were causing real harm there should be by-name examples by now.
https://firearmusernetwork.com/training-and-competition-the-dark-side/
There are no “studies” agreeing with anything you’ve made up here. Prove me wrong. I dare you.
>> So training with uncovered and insecure magazines off a feather light race gun belt, in a golf shirt with shorts and running shoes. DOES NOT prepare you for battle. It’s a great range day outfit but it’s not how real soldiers fight.
Does this also apply to wearing feather light clothing and no equipment worn during the Canadian Armed Forces FORCE evaluation?
Regardless, people can participate in a different sort of event requiring issue equipment of proper weight and greater fitness demands.
>> I agree that accuracy and basic handling are critical elements to train with as a soldier or a police officer… Warrior mindset is a earned mindset. It’s earned trough physical and mental tests that thin out the weak.
The reason why organized events were created and continue to be held. This predates firearms.
https://firearmusernetwork.com/competition-shooting-history-the-longbow/
>> Since you question why I wasn’t on a competitive team for my Infantry career. The response is: I was too busy after 9/11 learning how to win real gunfights.
You’ve been involved in continuous combat operations for 15 years with no one-way range time, leave, or recreation in between? At least you have a decent Internet connection at the moment…
>> It’s good to see all the “real” gunfighters agree with me…
Except for the large number that don’t.
>> I have a rebuttal article coming out, this one with direct feedback from the SF world
I bet that feedback did not come from:
MSG Scott Satterlee
https://firearmusernetwork.com/2015/07/07/competition-shooting-exceeds-special-forces-training/
SGM Kyle Lamb
https://firearmusernetwork.com/competition-shooting-training-special-forces/
Jon Canipe
https://firearmusernetwork.com/special-forces-weapons-sergeant-on-competition-shooting/
SGM Patrick McNamara
https://firearmusernetwork.com/special-forces-on-competition-shooting-2/
Frank Proctor
https://firearmusernetwork.com/can-competitive-shooting-help-real-world-defensive-shooting/
>> I’ll get you a link as soon as it’s publish and I look forward to your book report on it.
I’ll also post the entire thing here as well, if you like. I’ll even promise to not edit it with my grade 8 writing ability.
It would be productive to include your opinions on how training activity should be conducted. Rather than state why something is wrong, detail what would be correct. Explain how you would organize the means to train and test skills. You don’t like competition (3 Gun especially) so give us the particulars on what does work.
Finally, please direct any concerns about the nature of my mobilizations and active duty orders to LTG Russel L. Honoré (ret.) and/or the personnel publishing those orders that were serving under him at First Army.
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John a Kennedy
Jun 02, 2016 @ 00:43:24
It’s 11 o’clock at night when I stumbled over this. It irritated me so much I had to fire up the speech to text because I did was sit here all night typing this.
Most operators will tell you the old axiom is perfectly true”,” the more you sweat in training the less you bleed in action”.”
Competition is just that competition. It is how we test ourselves and stretch our skill set to meet higher standards than we thought possible.
You will never find a professional gunman, military or civil or even private sector that wants to press a trigger on a human subject. Anyone with any other attitude needs help and care and isolation from firearms and sharp objects.
The complaint that three gun competition or any other action competition dulls situational awareness is of course ridiculous. The situation is that you’re going to try to apply skill and accuracy to obtain a better score than the other patrons of your sport to win both accolades and prizes.
It’s just plain bragging rights. You know I was a long time competitor as well as a weapons and tactics instructor. The training required to compete in firearm competitions hones the skill set necessary for aggressive action or self-defense with firearms.
I have spent a lifetime training police officers to react to deadly force situations. Some are instantaneous. A fast draw from the holster, presentation, sight alignment and trigger press are all tied together with that officers potential for survival. The skill to do these things is what gives a human being the ability to do that hazardous type of job day in and day out. The operator with no confidence in his skill level with firearms will be the first to fire out of fear. The ability to take up a position, sight in on a human being, and fire only when commanded and or only to save lives takes tremendous awareness and confidence that can only be gained through intensive continuing training.
Force on force training properly applied is usually an eye-opener for the student who is never been shot at. There is no better way to teach an individual that their grasp and ability of dynamic tactics needs immediate improvement than the dust or marker paint on their vest and helmet.
That said it’s also one of the most entertaining games in town for many of the competition orientated population who just like to shoot. It doesn’t matter whether it’s pistols, rifles, long-range rifles shotguns or formal marksmanship competition it all enhances the hand eye coordination of the competitor. Awareness skills necessary for the operator, patrolman need constant training and evaluation and that is not gained in competition but the skill necessary to apply that force is.
It may be necessary to fire quickly in a social situation and the dedication to those skills and the ability to articulate the awareness of the threat will most likely make the difference between freedom and incarceration.
I’m afraid your critic as a bad case of the I want to be an expert, so I will critique something and try to make people think I actually know what I’m talking about.
This probably isn’t exactly what you needed and you have my permission to use any parts of it.
John a Kennedy
retired police weapons and tactics instructor
retired combat competitor
and continuing shooter
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John M. Buol Jr.
Jun 02, 2016 @ 07:24:27
From the World of Competition to Self-Defense
http://beyondthesights.us/from-the-world-of-competition-to-self-defense/
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John M. Buol Jr.
Jun 02, 2016 @ 07:53:55
Scott Satterlee shared this, primarily because of the similarity to 3 Gun shooting.
http://www.hurlburt.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/4891/Article/754030/creating-an-air-commando-air-commando-field-skills-course-week-1.aspx
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David Lahmann
Jun 02, 2016 @ 08:16:34
Just to help settle this, I spent almost 2 years straight in Iraq, Al Anbar province, as an infantryman doing combat patrols, I also spent 2 years in Marjah as an embedded police mentor with the Marines. On the other side, I was a U.S, Army Marksmanship instructor and did competitive shooting. So, in a nut shell, I have a long combat resume as well as competition shooting.
COMPETITION SHOOTING DOES NOT DEVELOP ANY BAD HABITS WHAT SO EVER. The only people I ever see post such nonsense are people who are poor shooters. Shooting is shooting. Practice shooting is practice shooting. Now, if you walk into a building and a guy is standing there with an AK about to shoot you, and you take a deep breath, get a good body position, carefully align the sights and gently apply pressure to the trigger then you’re just a moron.
Another myth I’ll dispel for you COMBAT DOES NOT MAKE YOU ANY KIND OF SHOOTING EXPERT. Period. Demanding someone has combat experience to have expertise on shooting is like saying you won’t go to a doctor for a kidney transplant because he never went to combat and just doesn’t know how it’s really done. Seriously?!?!?!? Combat does not make you any kind of an expert on shooting. I’ve personally seen John M. Buol shoot and I would rather get into a firefight against any infantryman, from any country, than with him.
Here is my advice, if you want to be able to tell people anything about shooting with any intelligence. If you’ve been to combat, good for you, we all have, YAY. it means nothing when it comes to shooting proficiency. How about instead, you go to shooting competitions, win or place well, then come and write about how you are going to quit because you developed bad habits. Its so easy to talk about combat this and war experience that…. go shoot a damn match so you can actually speak with some intelligence on the subject.
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John M. Buol Jr.
Jun 02, 2016 @ 21:46:47
Competition Mindset and Law Enforcement Training
http://beyondthesights.us/competition-mindset-and-law-enforcement-training
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Robert Kolesar
Jun 03, 2016 @ 00:26:20
Looks like Mr tattooedskier just fell off the turnip truck regarding marksmanship training and combat. It’s been a settled argument for about 100 years now. I always know what’s coming when someone starts out by insulting someone else with a differing opinion. Usually the one doing the insulting suffers from shortcomings like mediocre marksmanship skills that he tries to mask with BS not backed up with facts. Here’s a few:
Champion marksmen make great gunfighters. Bill Allard, who had the most shootings in NYPD history, was a national champion bullseye shooter. His partner, Jim Cirillo, competed in PPC. Both men attributed their winning numerous gun battles to superior marksmanship, learned competing on a square range. When I started out shooting competitively with the All-USAR Service Pistol Team, about half the team were cops. Most were gunfight veterans; some had been in several shootings. No one had shot at anyone and missed. A human is a lot bigger than a 10-ring.
Competition imbues in the shooter the ability to excel and focus despite stress. COL Charles Askins, 1937 National Pistol Champion who killed somewhere around 25-30 people, said that he experienced more stress winning the Nationals than in any gunfight he was in. SGT Alvin York, WW I MOH awardee, said in an interview that his exceptional ability with rifle and pistol gave him the confidence to take on a machine gun battalion and win. He never mentioned mindset or situational awareness when taking off turkey heads in the Tenn woods. He did say head-shooting Germans was easier than killing turkeys, though. A tactical genius can still lose a gunfight by missing.
Here’s my advice,based on a pretty eventful combat tour with the 1st CAV, 24 years on the LAPD and almost 30 years shooting competitively with the USAR Shooting Team:
Learn to shoot, then apply your skills to the tactical situation. A good, confident marksman makes the transition to tactical scenarios with ease. The reverse usually doesn’t work out too well. Tactical situations change; marksmanship doesn’t.
Be humble. Your attitude brands you as a wanna-be with no real experience as a marksman or instructor. I have a feeling you haven’t seen too much combat, either. You have offered nothing here except criticism of techniques and people you know nothing about. Combat time doesn’t usually translate into good instructor skills; constant training, analysis and a thorough study of what you’re engaged in, based on experience, does. I would hazard a guess that John Buol has trained THOUSANDS more Soldiers deploying for combat than you. He knows what works, based on feedback from the battlefield from the people he taught.
Prove me wrong and tell us here of your combat time, marksmanship/instructor skills and the situational awareness that you’ve blended into a warrior training program that’s winning firefights and gunbattles here and abroad.Looks like I missed it on my last tour at FT Bragg.
1SG (ret) Bob Kolesar
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John M. Buol Jr.
Jun 03, 2016 @ 07:05:12
Interestingly enough, days after posting the original article lambasting 3 Gun competition, the author posted this video of himself shooting.
https://www.facebook.com/shaun.tattoedskier/videos/135889190151510/
So… don’t shoot 3 Gun, but this is OK.
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John M. Buol Jr.
Jun 09, 2016 @ 17:25:36
As promised, the follow up article:
https://firearmusernetwork.com/competition-shooting-and-its-role-in-the-gunfight-a-practical-fact-based-approach-to-armed-professional-training/
In case anyone misses it, this follow up article and the quoted SF folks interviewed completely contradicts what the author claims in the article above.
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John M. Buol Jr.
Sep 10, 2016 @ 13:30:06
>> >> So training with uncovered and insecure magazines off a feather light race gun belt, in a golf shirt with shorts and running shoes…
Interestingly, CAFSAC requires as-issue FFO (Full Fighting Order) equipment and weapons. The 2016 events doubled the weight requirement. Despite already wearing full body armor with Small Arms Protective Insert plates and other issue gear, most competitors added small sand bags, dumbells, and barbell plates to their body armor to make the weight requirements. The equipment was weighed at least once every day of the event to ensure every participant made weight.
The full load out rig with weapons, helmet, equipment, and water weighed in excess of 50 pounds before adding ammunition and all of it is worn during run down matches and carried everywhere.
“Feather light race gun belt” says the idiots cowering from participating in such events.
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