The following guest article was written and submitted by John Veit.
We welcome a variety of points of view on the subjects of shooting and marksmanship. Test them objectively on the range and let the results fall where they may.
Competition Shooting And Combat Shooting
by John Veit
What history, stats, and studies make clear, is that they are similar, but also dissimilar.
[Editor’s Note: Anything written before 1960 referring to “target shooting” is almost always a reference to conventional, bullseye-style competition as formal practical shooting did not yet exist.]
Way back in 1835, Lr. Col. Baron De Berenger said this about target and combat shooting:
“It certainly is amusing, and it proves cleverness, when we see a person snuff a candle with a pistol ball, or cut a wafer in two, but what is the use of it? since highway robbers, housebreakers, &c. will not allow time for taking a deliberate, or rather slow, aim through the sights; in battle it would prove destructive to yourself to so do: nay as even the duelist must not take aim aided by sights, wherefore my humble opinion is, that a pistol having a front sight only answers every useful, that is, self-protecting, purpose, provided you have acquired the habit of dropping you pistol neatly towards, or rather directly on, the object you intend to hit, all the while looking at it, rather than the pistol, and which, with very little practice, is easy enough…”
And Fairbairn and Sykes, in their 1942 book – Shooting To Live With The One Hand Gun, had this to say about target and combat shooting:
“Target shooting has its place and we have no quarrel with it…There probably will be a quarrel, however, when we go on to say that beyond helping to teach care in the handling of fire-arms, target shooting is of no value whatever in learning the use of the pistol as a weapon of combat.
“The two things are as different from each other as chalk from cheese, and what has been learned from target shooting is best unlearned if proficiency is desired in the use of the pistol under actual fighting conditions.”
THE NON CONNECTION BETWEEN COMBAT AND QUALIFICATION SCORES
In the NYPD’s dated, but still relevant, long term SOP 9 study of Police combat, 300 hundred comparisons were made in an attempt to establish a connection between an Officer’s ability to strike a target in a combat situation and his qualification scores. A connection between them was not established.
THE UBIQUITOUS TWO HANDED GRIP
And then there’s the ubiquitous two handed grip as seen in web presentations by top competitors, in how-to-shoot videos, and even in major gun maker catalogues. Well, another finding of the NYPD’s SOP 9 study, which encompassed 6,000+ Police combat cases, was that Officers, with few exceptions, fired with the strong hand.
THE BASIC MARKSMANSHIP GRIP
Basic marksmanship manuals call for placing the thumb along the side of the gun, while at the same time NOT pressing against the gun. And the index finger is to be held aloof from the gun, for squeezing the trigger smoothly and directly back until the shot breaks.
This is what Rex Applegate said about that in his book – Kill Or Be Killed:
“Visualize the first-class target shot in the following combat situation: It is dark, he is in an alley, a poorly lighted street, or a room in a building. He can hardly see his gun at arm’s length, to say nothing of the sights. His muscles are tense, his nerves keyed up to a fighting pitch.
“Suddenly the enemy starts shooting at him from an unexpected quarter.
“Even if he could see the sights, would he take the time to line them up and fire at the enemy’s gun flash? Does he take up the trigger slack and squeeze off the shot as he has been taught to do in target shooting?
“Will he make sure that his feet are properly positioned and that he is breathing correctly? He certainly will not! He will grip his gun convulsively, raise it, point or shove it in the general direction of the enemy, and pull (not squeeze) the trigger.
“…In daylight he will do exactly the same thing….
“…By proper training at combat ranges, man-killing accuracy, without the use of sights and with extreme speed, can be acquired by the average soldier or Police Officer. This can be done in less time, and with less expenditure of ammunition, than is required to become even a fair target shot.”
THE COMBAT CRUSH GRIP
With a crush grip, your thumb will be pushing the gun to the right, and your middle and ring and little fingers will torque it down and around to the left. And you will miss low and left, as is the case with most combat misses.
A NOTE ON MODERN POLICE TRAINING AND COMPETITION
Here’s some info and a quote from Michael Conti’s excellent book: The Officers Guide To Police Pistolcraft, on modern police training and competition.
The “Applegate” system was adopted and taught at the FBI Academy in Quantico in the 1940’s. Then, with a change in management, it was eased out and replaced with a firearms program that “required more initial training time to learn, and a greater amount of practice time to maintain proficiency….Since this version was also referred to as “point shooting” the very name began to be associated with a complicated and inefficient method of handgun deployment.”
The 1950’s also saw the rise of competition shoots and the popularity of the “…’new technique of the combat pistol,’ consisting of the Weaver Stance, quick draw, quick sight picture, and surprise shot break. Another bedrock component of the new technique was the preference for big bore 1911-type single-action, semiautomatic pistols, most notably in 45 ACP caliber.”
With the establishment of popular shooting schools, and the development of practical shooting associations, the term “combat handgun shooting” became synonymous with the competition-based and unrealistic shooting games. The NRA and its Law Enforcement Activities Division, also began to provide programs based on the competition model.
NOW YOU SEE THE SIGHTS, NOW YOU DON’T
The sights are key to effective competition shooting. But in a real CQB situation, you won’t be able to focus on them. That’s because in a real CQB situation, you will lose your near vision focus.
Our Fight or Flight response is triggered instinctively in a real CQB situation, and it dumps adrenaline into the blood stream. The adrenaline in turn, causes the muscle, which controls the shape of the flexible lens of the eye, to relax. The result is a flattening of the lens, which is the shape that enables focusing on far objects like the threat. And with the change in the shape of the lens (from thick to thin), near vision focus on objects like the sights, will be lost.
MOST ALL REAL SHOOTINGS HAPPEN AT LESS THAN 20 FEET
Another stat says that most all real shooting happen within 21 feet. And if you are going to be shot and or killed, there is an 80% chance that it will happen at less than 20 feet.
So, statistically speaking, if you train at distances over 20 feet more than 20% of the time, you will increase your chance of being shot and/or killed in CQB.
SS OR PS – WHICH IS FASTEST?
For me, using AIMED Point Shooting or P&S is way faster than using Sight Shooting, and noticeably faster than using another Point Shooting method at close quarters. And it is effective when standing still, when moving, and even when shooting aerials.
As to being faster than someone else, I may or may not be. I can only do what I can do. And I’m OK with that.
FINALLY
Much of modern Police training flows from competition shooting.
And competition shooting and combat shooting, as was said at the start, are similar but also dissimilar. What they certainly are not, are equivalents.
If they were, Police would be using the latest winningest ways, and all the crooks would be dead, or in hospital, or in jail. But that’s not the case. In the real world, the Police miss rate in CQB situations, is more than 80%.
And who or what’s to blame for that, the competitive shooting ways, or the trainers.
It hasn’t been that long ago when Officer’s were critized for being shot or killed, as that evidenced a lack of training, or practice, or commitment, or whatever. No one called into question the training or the trainers.
Well, given the level of Police casualties over the past several years, and a miss rate of more than 80% in CQB situations, I think it’s high time to question both.
Let the measure of successful combat shooting be a hit rate of 75% or more in CQB encounters. If it comes from emulating competition ways, that would be good. And if it comes from investigations of what works and what doesn’t, that also would be good.
Currently, we are a long long way from it.
KR
Mar 01, 2012 @ 09:00:08
This is just a rehash of 40-50 year old arguments that were valid, back in the day when ‘competition shooting’ was bullseye and maybe PPC. To my knowledge the guest article author has not been in any gunfights, nor has he trained anyone who has won a gunfight, nor has he participated in any modern handgun training course or competition in the last decade, leaving him ill informed to critique the current “state of the art” in the 21st century.
Modern schools do not teach 1950’s style target shooting. They teach one- and two-handed shooting, proper trigger manipulation, and educate students about the relationship between target size & distance and appropriate sight picture. Graduates of modern programs understand that “point shooting” works for close targets and are capable of precision aimed fire on smaller or more distant targets, and they learn not only one handed shooting but one handed gun manipulation (reloads, malfunction clearing, and so on.).
Uniformed personnel engaged in the border War on Drugs and the overseas War on Terror have acquired a lot of experience in real gunfights and insight into what training works and what does not. None of them have come back from the fight and said “we need to stop aiming”. What many have found is that the use of red dot sights (on rifles, and more recently the use of small RDS like the Trijicon RMR on carry pistols) improves performance because they simplify the aiming process – point shooting by pointing the dot, not ‘smoking and hoping’ with no sight picture at all. The dots are easier to see than iron sights, particularly in low light, and allow for faster target acquisition.
His data on law enforcement hit ratios is incorrect, his analysis is nonexistent and his assumptions are wrong. Most “point shooting” advocates demonstrate their methods standing still 3 yards away from a 18″ or 24″ wide stationary target on a sunny day. Most real incidents occur around vehicles and other obstacles, with targets that are partially obscured, moving, and shooting back. Law enforcement agencies like NYPD that give their officers guns with 9-12 lb triggers and only let them shoot 50-100 rounds a year get crappy results because pistol shooting, particularly point shooting, requires a lot of practice to reach competence. Agencies like LAPD’s Metro division, who train harder, more realistically and more frequently, are getting 80% hits or better (or are missing less than 20% of their shots, to mirror his statistics). LAPD Metro officers train to use their sights. Similarly, private sector trainers like Scott Reitz and Tom Givens teach aimed fire, and have dozens of students who have won actual incidents with excellent “hit ratios”.
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John Veit
Mar 02, 2012 @ 09:17:24
The NYPD’s SOP 9 study was of 6000+ combat cases, and though old now, the findings and results have not been replaced.
According to the FBI stats (1988 – 1997) of a total of 633 Officers killed with firearms, 86 percent were killed within 21 feet.
According to the FBI stats (1994 – 2003) of a total of 568 Officers killed with firearms, 83% were killed within 21 feet.
THE NRA ADVOCATES THE USE OF POINT SHOOTING IN Close Quarters LIFE THREAT SITUATIONS.
In The NRA Guide To The Basics Of Personal Protection In The Home, the common findings of studies of Police Close Quarters combat are stated as facts. And it recognizes that our Fight or Flight response, with its involuntary physiological changes, kicks in automatically in life threat situations.
Per the NRA, “real-life violent encounters occur at very close range, often in reduced-light conditions, and are over in a matter of seconds. One study of Police shootings in a major urban area showed that the majority of encounters took place after dark, at 3 yards or less, in less than 3 seconds, and involved the firing of an average of three shots.”
Would like to see a link to the LA study and the background info on it that supports its findings. I am sure that the millions of folks who have a gun at home would be interessted in learning about it, and in particular the shooting method used. And ditto for the Giovens study.
Gunfights are rare bird situations per the Rand Corp study of the NYPD.
I believe it makes sense to train for the most probable situation, which is one at less than 21 feet, where you will lose your near vision so you won’t be able to focus on the sights, and where by default you will you Point shooting of some type.
Here’s a link to Point Shooting as taught by Fairbairn, Sykes and Applegate
+ a link to a how-to-do You-Tube video http://www.pointshooting.com/faschap.htm
Point Shooting is very easy to learn. P&S which I support can be learned with little or no training and can be maintained with little or no practice. You can use an airsoft pistol for in home practice, or just walk around the house, point your finger at stuff and say bang. :-) Just use common sense,
And if you have a gun at home for self protection, it also makes sense to visit the range now and then.
Here’s a link to my video: EZ Point Shooting with a pistol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=511eT8Iwvd0&
I would be interested to learn just how you Point Shoot and I am sure others would be interested in that info as well. Please provide us with a detailed description. Some pics and/or a video link would be nice.
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John M. Buol Jr.
Mar 05, 2012 @ 19:26:00
@KR
Thanks for this!
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David B. Monier-Williams
Mar 12, 2012 @ 12:25:35
Here’s an even better website for the shooting technique that is way ahead of the curve, especially the above mentioned curves, “http://www.turnipseedstance.com/” I know it will bend the noses of most the current trainer types. As Liberace once said, “If you haven’t tried it, don’t knock it.”
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John M. Buol Jr.
Mar 14, 2012 @ 11:53:18
@ David B. Monier-Williams
>> >> Agencies like LAPD’s Metro division … are getting 80% hits or better [in fights.] … Similarly, private sector trainers like Scott Reitz and Tom Givens teach aimed fire, and have dozens of students who have won actual incidents with excellent “hit ratios”.
>> Here’s an even better website for the shooting technique that is way ahead of the curve, especially the above mentioned curves.
Wow, I didn’t know the Turnipseed stance folks have empirical data showing their students are getting better than 80% hits in actual fights and are winning in high-level practical shooting competition.
Please submit an article on the specifics and cite appropriate references.
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John M. Buol Jr.
Mar 15, 2012 @ 09:29:48
– Massad Ayoob, The Crucible Of Competition
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David B. Monier-Williams
Mar 15, 2012 @ 12:02:57
John, let’s deal with Kent’s award. He started in the Martial Arts at age fourteen and has risen to Black Belt level in several of them having been taught mainly by Orientals, recognized Masters in their fields. It was other Masters, who sat on the board, that “bestowed ” Master Status” on Kent Turnipseed as developer of the Turnipseed Technique. His peers recognized that he’s been the only one to take the Martial Art to a different and higher level…that with a gun.
Kent was an early shooting member of the “Southwest Pistol League,” and has competed in most of the recognized types of competitions. The main reason that Kent doesn’t advise competition is taken from an example where a Law Enforcement Officer who when confronted by a Nasty went into the surrender position. Lucky for him he was wearing a vest as a round in the chest really hurts. He eventually killed the Nasty and immediately gave up competition….I can’t imagine why, can you?
As you train so shall you shoot!
Though most of his trainees are civilians, Kent has trained Law Enforcement Officers, SWAT, SAS, and Delta etc. He even found and trained a humble SEAL.
“Whatever gives measurable results. I have not yet seen any empirical data on skill measurements accomplished by Turnipseed instructors or students. You are welcome to publish that data here.”
Let me share with you his “empirical results.” His knows of eight “fights.” The first person, a man, fighting in the Sand Box took out six in one day. It’s reasonable to suppose that additional kills were to his credit while he was still playing in the sand. Of the rest, one was an attempted car-jacking, the other an inner city incident, all the rest were home invasions. Seven were men, one female. All six Nasties were killed the seventh a paraplegic. One of the people was Kent and in all none were injured. There were no Law Enforcement Officers.
The Police asked the female in the above home invasion, ‘ Why did you shoot the guy five times?” she replied, “Because the fucking gun didn’t have any more bullets.” She was using a revolver.
You do the math.
Now I have some “empirical data” that you and your other trainers need to show me. Show me your videos that accomplish all that is in Kent’s video.
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John M. Buol Jr.
Mar 16, 2012 @ 09:20:24
>> let’s deal with Kent’s award.
I’m glad his own peer group thinks highly of him. What other marksman-trainers did the board consider for this recognition and what was their criterion for selecting Mr. Turnipseed over the others (if there were any others)?
>> Kent was an early shooting member of the “Southwest Pistol League,” and has competed in most of the recognized types of competitions.
What sort of classifications or significant match wins did he accomplish?
>> The main reason that Kent doesn’t advise competition is
… based on one story?
>> He eventually killed the Nasty
Oh, so he actually won the day. Most “games’ll getcha killed” tales end with the nameless person, victimized by USPSA/IDPA-induced training scars, being killed. Of course, I guess learning a proper Turnipseed stance makes you bullet proof and incapable of human mistakes, provided you aren’t tainted with any success in competitive shooting.
Hey, Mr. Turnipseed participated in competition…. How did he “untaint” himself?
>> As you train so shall you shoot!
True. Set up your training and competitions to mirror how you want to shoot. Anyone claiming to be an instructor can structure an event, be it training or competition, to encourage good habits without incurring training scars. The LEO in your story would have eliminated that alleged training scar by particpating in events that had varying start positions (interview position, hands at sides, hands at chest level, jazz hands or whatever you like.)
>> Let me share with you his “empirical results.”
This is anecdotal, not empirical, evidence. Significantly more students of other schools have won more fights than this.
Since the inventions of firearms there have been countless theories and approaches to launching projectiles from them and hitting targets, adversaries and/or animals on purpose. Kent Turnipseed throws yet another approach on this pile. That’s great! He and his students are welcome to shoot however they like. Other people with different ideas may do something different and I’m OK with that, too. It’s one of the reasons I publish every article you’ve sent me and do the same for others.
That’s why I like competition. Shoot however you like. I’m just measuring where the bullets end up and how much time it took to get them there. Superior technique will always yield superior measurable results. Turnipseed practitioners are welcome to attend any event and measure their approach against what other people are accomplishing.
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David B. Monier-Williams
Mar 16, 2012 @ 13:53:18
“What other marksman-trainers did the board consider for this recognition and what was their criterion for selecting Mr. Turnipseed over the others (if there were any others)?”
Please, re-read my statement and you might like to re-think your question.
“The main reason that Kent doesn’t advise competition is
… based on one story?”
Hardly. Reading between the lines is required.
“Of course, I guess learning a proper Turnipseed stance makes you bullet proof and incapable of human mistakes, provided you aren’t tainted with any success in competitive shooting.”
The Turnipseed Technique doesn’t impose any artificial scenarios which can lead to inherent bad habits that can get you killed.
“The LEO in your story would have eliminated that alleged training scar by participating in events that had varying start positions (interview position, hands at sides, hands at chest level, jazz hands or whatever you like.)”
If the cop wasn’t wearing his vest, the alleged training scar, he would have been empirically dead.
“This is anecdotal, not empirical, evidence.”
The only people that can give you your, empirical evidence” are those “fights” done by cops, civilians are not likely to care how many shots were fired nor do they have access to the police reports. Nonetheless ALL 12 assailants are “anecdotally and empirically” DEAD and the other wishes he was.
Again, I have some “empirical data” that you and your other trainers need to show me. Show me your videos that accomplish all that is in Kent’s video. Just show me your video. Just show me your video.
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John M. Buol Jr.
Mar 16, 2012 @ 14:45:17
Because so few have heard of you or are willing to pay attention, I have not found anyone bothering with the tricks demonstrated in Mr. Turnipseed’s video. These feats are similar in nature and of a higher skill level.
Taran Butler point shooting demo
Taran Butler point shooting at a USPSA match (yes, you can do that.)
Readers are encouraged to view a Turnipseed point shooting demo and make their own decisions.
http://turnipseedstance.com/videos/hipshoot.wmv at http://turnipseedstance.com/
Todd Jarrett shooting on the move in a similar manner demonstrated by the Turnipseed folks. Note his comment about the first attempt…..
Jerry Miculek
Ben Stoeger El Presidente
Production (Beretta), 3.78 seconds
http://benstoeger.com
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=841341607847861912
Jake DiVita El Presidente
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John M. Buol Jr.
Mar 16, 2012 @ 15:18:44
This is the part of the conversation where you say, “Those shooters are out of balance” or something.
>> Just show me your video. Just show me your video.
Just go win a match. Just go win a match. Or earn a high classification or perform to any standard that others might recognize. Or convince others why they should be shooting milk jugs and lath instead.
You are free to shoot however you like, as is everyone else. Write up some more articles, send them my way and I’ll publish them even though you and Mr. Turnipseed have never extended the same courtesy to me.
Maybe some of my readers will find value in what you preach. Good for you!
Others may not. Oh well. If your approach is truly superior you’ll have no problem beating them at their own game and people will eventually turn your way.
I’ll even publish your articles to help you along the way. You don’t have to convince me of anything because I’m already agreeing to publish your stuff as well as other people’s stuff, too. Gosh, I’m such a nice guy! :)
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David B. Monier-Williams
Mar 17, 2012 @ 10:48:14
John, nice try…close but no cigar.
John, I’m not sure, but I don’t think that the Martial Arts are based on tricks. Kent Turnipseed was given his status as Master for developing his Technique based on those Arts.
The essence of Kent’s video with the pistol is at close range from the hip and in full retention and on the move as well as on the ground. Additionally, he uses the same stance with the exception of the position of the hands with both shotgun and 7.62 rifle in full auto. The concept of using one technique for long arms and side arms, while still making recoil a non-issue, is a Martial Arts and a KISS concept. Kent is the only one who’s done this…others have tried and failed.
The ability to stand on one foot indicates to yourself that you’re in balance, it also indicates the ability to move, still in the stance, up and downstairs. The man in the first video using the Isosceles has hunched shoulders and is leaning forward. The raised leg with foot behind is a counter weight, but I don’t think it’s possible to use the stairs in that position.
When it comes to tricks some people might say that Mike Miculek’s abilities with a revolver are tricks, but I wouldn’t say that. Mike has a fantastic ability with a revolver that no else can match or even come close to. He is a professional shooter. He expends between 50,000 and 100,000 rounds a year to keep up his abilities. Police Depts. don’t have this privilege, let alone the average Jane/Joe Doe. Whereas, Kent’s abilities are taught to all his students male and female alike, anyone can learn them without the enormous expenditure of time, energy, ammunition and money.
By the way, Kent shoot about 2000 rounds a year and that’s rifle, pistol and shotgun combined to maintain his level of proficiency.
Todd does show great abilities with a handgun while moving….., however when firing on the move at close range and parallel to the targets its not from the hip, unlike the person in Kent’s video. His other moves are at a distance. He too uses a different technique when addressing a shotgun as well as shooting between 50,000 to 100,000 rounds of pistol a year.
Taran Butler, another professional shooter expending thousands of rounds a year, accomplishes his feat very well but it’s not from the hip and in touching distances would be disarmed and/or killed. Kent and Alan Egusa’s demo are from the hip and are in full retention as well as on the move. In fact, many have tried to disarm them and failed.
El Presidente is fast furious and accurate, but has nothing to do with Kent’s video.
If you can’t shoot from the hip while moving, shoot while going up and down stairs, shoot from the ground, you’re not being realistic or relevant to the real world.
You have shown some accomplishments by top shooters two professionals, but they have nothing to do with Kent’s video.
So it’s back to the drawing board. This time with a pistol at close quarters from the hip in retention and moving, also on the ground….you know… under a car. As for shotgun, using slugs and 00 Buck on one foot and in a chair with both feet off the ground, as well as on the ground and with a rifle in 7.62 or larger in full auto on one leg and in a crouch all as shown on Kent’s video.
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John M. Buol Jr.
Mar 18, 2012 @ 09:08:45
Without a published standard and objective means to measure skill we’re stuck with useless, subjective assessments.
I don’t care how someone looks. Instead, I just record the result based on some yardstick (target size, distance, elapsed time, etc.) and let the numbers dictate what good, better, best is. If a technique is “wrong” or “bad” but shooters consistently produce high measurable results with it, then maybe it isn’t so wrong or bad.
Regardless, I’ve posted links to the Turnipseed videos along with others. I’ll let each reader decide which videos show displays of superior skill. The links to your site will let them contact your folks if they see potential value with the Turnipseed approach.
>> El Presidente is fast, furious and accurate, but has nothing to do with Kent’s video.
Agreed.
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